PayPal Holdings PYPL
Financial Services · Financial - Credit Services · Synthos Deep Dive · 2026-07-03
The Overview
PayPal runs the "PayPal" and "Venmo" buttons you tap to pay online, plus the plumbing (Braintree) that lets other companies take card payments. It still makes a lot of cash — about $5.5 billion of free cash last year — and it's using that cash to buy back its own stock, which is like a pizza being cut into fewer, bigger slices so each remaining slice is worth more.
The stock is cheap — you're paying about $8.50 for every $1 of yearly profit, when the average big company costs $20–25. So why is it cheap? Because newer ways to pay — Apple Pay on your phone, "Shop Pay" at online stores — are chipping away at PayPal's best, most profitable business. The stock has fallen about 40% in the past year while the market went up 20%.
Our verdict is Buy — Tactical: worth a small bet that the market has been too pessimistic and the price bounces back, but not a safe "own-it-forever" holding. Keep the position size modest.
Here's what our three scores mean in everyday terms:
- Downside Risk 4/10 (below average risk). It's cheap and doesn't carry much debt, which cushions the downside — but the stock is jumpy and has already fallen a long way, and the business faces a real threat.
- Growth Quality 5/10 (middling). The company is profitable, but it's barely growing; most of the per-share earnings growth comes from buybacks, not from selling more.
- Exponential Potential 3/10 (low). This is a mature, slowing business. If it works out, it's because the price re-rates back to normal — not because the company doubles in size.
The one big worry: PayPal's most profitable business — the branded "Pay with PayPal" checkout button — could keep losing ground to Apple, Shopify and bank wallets. If that erosion speeds up, cheap stays cheap (a "value trap").
Putting a number on it: our fair-value estimate is $58 against a current price of $53.66 — real upside if our numbers are right.
Our summary metrics
Cheap (8.5× EPS, 5.7× EV/EBITDA) & lightly levered (net-debt/EBITDA 0.33×) — but beta 1.3, −86% max drawdown and a real secular-threat overhang.
Only ~5% fwd revenue / ~7% fwd EPS CAGR; buybacks (not organic growth) do the EPS lifting; 46% GM, 25% ROE, 15% ROIC are solid but not accelerating.
Decelerating mature-payments incumbent; branded-checkout share under attack; buyback-driven, not a multibagger — room-to-run exists only via re-rating, not TAM expansion.
What does “fair value” mean?
Fair value is Synthos’s estimate of what one share is worth today, based on our model of the company’s future cash generation and the risks to it. It is not a price target or a prediction of where the stock trades next quarter — it’s the price where we think risk and reward are balanced. Above it, you’re paying for outcomes better than our base case; below it, the market is offering a margin of safety.
The model’s inputs and weightings are proprietary — they’re the product. What we publish is the output, plus an independent, public-math cross-check further down the page (“Check our number”) so you can judge it for yourself.
What do the 5 tiers mean? (Core · Tactical · Watch · Hold · Avoid)
Exponential Potential
Decelerating mature-payments incumbent; branded-checkout share under attack; buyback-driven, not a multibagger — room-to-run exists only via re-rating, not TAM expansion.
“Convergence of crypto tokens with public fintechs like Figure, Hood, PayPal, Coinbase will be one of the most explosive growth points as they disrupt middlemen; capital flows to the most efficient places.”
What could take this further than the base case — and where the market may be underpricing it. Full forward-growth and acceleration math in Deeper analysis, §4 below.
Deeper analysis
Technicals, fundamentals, valuation, and the full expert-claim evidence panel — the detail behind the numbers above.
Reference table
| Street consensus | $50.05 (high $65 / low $34; 0 Strong-Buy · 26 Buy · 40 Hold · 4 Sell → "Hold") — context, not our anchor |
| Valuation | 8.5× trailing EPS · 8.5× FY26E · 7.9× FY27E · 6.0× FY30E · EV/S 1.3× · EV/EBITDA 5.7× · FCF yield ~14% |
| Technicals | Downtrend — $45.47, −42% off 52-wk high, below 200-DMA ($53.77), at 50-DMA, RSI 68, −40% 12-mo (SPY +21%, QQQ +30%) |
| Conviction | Low — 1 net-bullish voice, 2 traceable claims (1 bull 2022 / 1 bear 2024, same source); no breadth |
| Position sizing | Satellite / value sleeve, ~1–3% — a mean-reversion bet, position for volatility |
What the experts actually said 11 traceable claims on PYPL · showing the highest-conviction voices
“Holds a crypto-40 equal-weight basket of public names (PayPal, Robinhood, ~6 total) positioned for the AI-agent/tokenization crossover; the Stripe-for-PayPal bid was a big deal.”
“Stripe bid for PayPal was a big deal; PayPal (and Robinhood) are among six public names in his crypto 40-name equal-weight agentic basket.”
“eBay and PayPal are the beginning of a wave of mega-deals where AI-native operators buy stale, non-founder-led first-gen digital businesses to revive them.”
“PayPal's poor stock performance is surprising given it remains highly cash-generative and still growing.”
“Convergence of crypto tokens with public fintechs like Figure, Hood, PayPal, Coinbase will be one of the most explosive growth points as they disrupt middlemen; capital flows to the most efficient places.”
“Bought PayPal at peak on an 'everything wallet' thesis; the shift in how we spend money isn't here yet, down ~50%.”
Every claim reconciles to a real claim_id in the Synthos knowledge base — this is the evidence the verdict is built on, not vibes. Management (the company itself) is shown but half-weighted; one cautionary voice is included on purpose.
Price & moving averages 12 months · 50 & 200-day averages · 52-week range
Solid line = price · dashed line = 50-day average · dotted line = 200-day average · the two thin horizontal lines mark the 52-week high and low. Price above both averages is an uptrend.
Data summary: last close $53.66, 0% below the 50-day average ($54), 5% above the 200-day average ($51) — a mixed trend. 30% below the 52-week high of $76, 37% above the 52-week low of $39.
Bollinger Bands 20-day average ± 2 standard deviations
The shaded band widens when the stock gets more volatile. Riding the upper edge = strong momentum (sometimes stretched); the lower edge = weak / potentially oversold.
Data summary: price $53.66 is currently at/below the lower band (potentially oversold) (band $56–$64).
RSI (14) momentum gauge · 0–100
Above 70 (overbought zone, shaded) = overbought, below 30 (oversold zone, shaded) = oversold. Currently 35.
MACD 12 / 26 / 9 · trend & momentum
The MACD line crossing above the signal line (bars flip to the up color) = momentum turning up; crossing below (bars flip to the down color) = turning down. Bar height = the size of that gap.
Data summary: MACD is currently below its signal line by 0.83, negative momentum.
Relative performance vs S&P 500 & its sector (XLF (sector)), set to 100 a year ago
Solid = PYPL · dashed = S&P 500 · dotted = XLF (sector). A rising line means it is beating that benchmark — the sector line shows whether it is a leader or laggard within its own group.
Forward revenue & earnings actual → estimate · "FY" = fiscal year, "E" = estimate
Darker bars = actual results, brighter = analyst estimates. Taller bars to the right = expected growth.
Key stats an RIA wants
1. What it is
PayPal Holdings (Nasdaq: PYPL) is the largest independent digital-payments company in the West, spun out of eBay in 2015. It operates a two-sided payments network — ~200 markets, ~100 currencies — under a portfolio of brands: the core PayPal wallet/checkout button, Venmo (US peer-to-peer + a growing debit/commerce business), Braintree (enterprise payment processing / the rails behind many large merchants), Xoom (remittance), Zettle (in-person/SMB), Hyperwallet, Honey (deals/affiliate) and Paidy (Japan BNPL). CEO is Alex Chriss (note: FMP's profile field lists a stale CEO name; Chriss has led since late 2023). Fiscal year ends December 31.
Revenue mix (FY2025, from filings):
- By type: Transaction Revenue $29.80B (90%) · Other Value-Added Services $3.37B (10%). The "Other" line — interest earned on customer balances, credit, and merchant services — is small but higher-margin and has grown from $1.5B (2020) to $3.4B, a quiet margin tailwind.
- By geography: United States $18.87B (57%) · rest of world $14.30B (43%). More internationally diversified than most US megacaps, though the US is the profit engine.
The core tension (why the whole note exists): PayPal's revenue splits into two very different businesses. Branded checkout (the "Pay with PayPal" button) is high-margin, high-return, and the crown jewel — but it is losing share to Apple Pay, Shop Pay, and bank-run wallets. Unbranded processing (Braintree) is large, fast-growing, but low-margin — it grows total payment volume (TPV) without adding much profit. So headline TPV can look healthy while the profitable mix erodes. Management under Chriss has explicitly reoriented toward "profitable growth" — repricing Braintree, monetizing the mix — which is why margins and EPS have held up even as branded-checkout worries dominate the stock.
2. The expert thesis — thin coverage, net-neutral (traceable)
Honest disclosure up front: PayPal has almost no expert coverage in the Synthos KB — just 2 claims, from a single source, and they cancel out. This is not a conviction-track name; the verdict below is driven by fundamentals and quant, not by an expert panel.
The two traceable claims, both from Invest Like the Best:
- Bullish (2022-07-04, conviction 55): "PayPal's poor stock performance is surprising given it remains highly cash-generative and still growing." (
invest_like_the_best-7Gy-6nWAeZA:56854ce2e4) — the deep-value case, and one the fundamentals still support four years later (FCF ~$5.5B, still growing, still cheap). - Bearish (2024-01-17, conviction 55): "Bought PayPal at peak on an 'everything wallet' thesis; the shift in how we spend money isn't here yet, down ~50%." (
invest_like_the_best-cmcCyNtRu1M:eff86d0e42) — the honest admission that the growth thesis broke: PayPal did not become the everything-wallet, and the stock halved.
Net read: the same thoughtful investor was drawn in by cheapness and cash generation, then burned when the growth narrative failed to materialize. That is exactly the PayPal debate in miniature — cash-rich and cheap versus a growth story that didn't happen. With breadth of 1 and net conviction ~0, we assign no independent weight to the panel and rest the call on the numbers. Where a name like this earns a Buy, it is a quant/value Buy, sized as a tactical position — never a core conviction position.
3. Synthos scores & the Bull / Base / Bear cases
The one-glance judgment — three scores, 0–10, each anchored to real metrics (not probabilities we can't honestly calibrate):
| Score | 0–10 | The read |
|---|---|---|
| Downside Risk (lower = safer) | 4 · Below-average | Cheap (8.5× EPS, 5.7× EV/EBITDA, ~14% FCF yield) and lightly levered (net-debt/EBITDA 0.33×) give a valuation floor — but beta 1.3, a −86% drawdown from the 2021 peak, and a genuine secular threat keep this from scoring lower/safer. |
| Growth Quality | 5 · Middling | 46% gross margin, 25% ROE, 15% ROIC, positive FCF — a real, profitable business. But forward revenue CAGR is only ~5% and EPS growth leans on buybacks, not units; mix erosion caps the quality score. |
| Exponential Potential | 3 · Low | Mature incumbent, decelerating, in a category where its most profitable niche is under attack. Upside is a re-rating, not TAM-driven compounding. A small, accelerating fintech would score 8–9; PayPal is the opposite profile. |
The three cases (our own scenario model — assumptions shown; each target is a ~12–18-month fair value). We deliberately do not attach probabilities: the base case is by definition the expected path, so a weighted blend would just restate it with false precision. The cases bound the range.
| Case | Key assumptions | Fair value |
|---|---|---|
| Bull | Branded-checkout stabilizes; Venmo monetization + "Other VAS" mix lift margins; buybacks compound. FY27E EPS beats to ~$6.30 (vs $5.75 cons); the market re-rates a de-risked cash machine to ~13.5×. | ~$85 (+87%) |
| Base (our anchor) | Estimates roughly hit — FY27E EPS $5.75; branded-checkout erosion stays gradual, buybacks shrink the count ~4%/yr; multiple re-rates modestly from a distressed 8.5× to ~10×. | ~$58 (+28%) |
| Bear | Branded-checkout erosion accelerates (Apple Pay/Shop Pay take share faster); pricing/mix pressure caps EPS near ~$5.00; the value-trap narrative wins and the multiple stays ~6.5×. | ~$32 (−30%) |
Synthos fair value = the base case, ~$58 (+28%), with the full $32–$85 span as the honest range. This anchor sits above the Street's $50 consensus (we give more credit to a modest re-rating off a distressed multiple), while our bear ($32) is below the Street's $34 low (we take the value-trap risk seriously). The wide range is the point: PayPal is a binary-ish re-rating bet, not a tight compounder. This is a tracked call — the Forecaster Scorecard grades it once it matures.
4. Exponential Potential
Synthos separates compounders (durable high returns on capital) from exponentials (accelerating, multi-baggers-from-here). PayPal is neither — it is a mature, decelerating incumbent whose per-share growth is manufactured by buybacks:
- Forward growth: revenue CAGR FY25→FY30E ~5.5% ($33.2B → $43.3B est); EPS CAGR ~7.1% ($5.41 → $7.63 est) — the EPS gap over revenue is almost entirely the shrinking share count (959M FY25 → ~900M and falling), not margin explosion or unit acceleration.
- Acceleration (the 2nd derivative) is flat-to-negative: revenue grew +4.3% FY25 (on +6.8% FY24), and estimates imply mid-single-digits from here — no inflection. This is a business past its growth curve, defending share, not expanding a frontier.
- Room to run: at $40B market cap the stock is small enough to double on a re-rating, but the constraint is not TAM — digital payments is huge and growing — it's share and mix: PayPal's addressable profit pool is arguably shrinking as branded checkout cedes ground. Room-to-run here means multiple-expansion, not the company getting multiples bigger.
- Reinvestment runway: low. Capex is trivial (~2.6% of revenue); the company returns cash via buybacks rather than reinvesting for hyper-growth — appropriate for a mature cash cow, but the antithesis of an exponential.
Exponential Potential: Low (3/10). Own PayPal for a value re-rating plus buyback compounding, explicitly not for a fast multibagger. This honest framing is why PYPL is a Satellite/value-sleeve position, never a flagship exponential.
5. Financials (real numbers — FMP annual/quarterly)
- Revenue: FY25 $33.17B, +4.3% (FY24 $31.80B, +6.8% on FY23 $29.77B). Slow, steady, mid-single-digit — a mature grower.
- Quarterly trajectory: Q1'25 $7.79B → Q2 $8.29B → Q3 $8.42B → Q4 $8.68B → Q1'26 $8.35B (+7.2% YoY). Modest, not accelerating.
- Margins: gross 46.1% TTM, operating ~17.9%, EBITDA ~22.1%, net 15.0% TTM. Margins have improved under the "profitable growth" reset (net was 12.5% FY24) — a genuine positive.
- Earnings: net income $5.23B FY25 (+26% on FY24's $4.15B, helped by margin + mix), EPS diluted $5.41 vs $3.99. Q1'26 EPS $1.21 (beat: actual $1.34 adj vs $1.27 est).
- Cash flow: operating CF $6.42B, capex −$0.85B, FCF $5.56B FY25 (~14% FCF yield on market cap) — the core of the bull case. FCF fully funds the buyback.
- Capital return: $6.05B of stock repurchased FY25 (plus a newly-initiated $0.13B dividend). Share count fell from 1,173M (2020) to 959M (FY25 wtd avg) and ~913M in Q1'26 — a ~22% reduction in five years, a powerful per-share tailwind.
- Balance sheet: total debt $9.99B, cash+ST investments $10.4B, net debt just $1.94B → net-debt/EBITDA 0.33×. Investment-grade, easily serviceable. (Note: the large receivables/payables on the balance sheet are mostly customer funds/loans held for others, not corporate leverage.)
6. Valuation — priced for decline, or a bargain?
PayPal is genuinely, unambiguously cheap on every trailing metric: 8.5× EPS, 5.7× EV/EBITDA, 1.3× EV/sales, ~14% FCF yield, 2.1× book. On forward consensus the P/E is 8.5× (FY26E) → 7.9× (FY27E) → 6.0× (FY30E) — the market is pricing near-zero growth and a real risk of decline. FMP's quant model rates the stock "A" (overall score 4/5) largely on these value and cash-return metrics.
The bull's argument: a cash machine yielding ~14% FCF, buying back ~15% of its market cap in stock over two years, does not deserve a 6–8× multiple unless earnings are about to fall — and estimates say they won't (they grind up ~7%/yr). A modest re-rating to a still-cheap ~10× on FY27E $5.75 gets you to ~$58.
The bear's argument (and why it's this cheap): the market has been repeatedly burned expecting stabilization, and a business losing its most profitable niche can stay cheap indefinitely — the textbook value trap. The multiple is low because the terminal-decline tail is real, not because the market is asleep.
Street targets (context): consensus $50.05, high $65, low $34; the grade split is telling — 0 Strong-Buy, 26 Buy, 40 Hold, 4 Sell → "Hold." The Street likes the value but won't call the turn. Our $58 base is modestly more constructive than the $50 consensus; our $32 bear is below their $34 low. Not a growth buy; a cheap-cash-machine, re-rating buy.
7. Technicals (computed from EOD price history)
- Trend: down. $45.47 sits below the 200-DMA ($53.77) and right at the 50-DMA ($44.88) — a broken longer-term trend attempting a short-term base. MACD is flat (~0).
- Location: −42% off the 52-week high ($78.22), +16% off the 52-week low ($39.08). The all-time drawdown from the 2021 peak (~$310) is a brutal −86% — this stock has destroyed enormous value and is a de-rating veteran.
- Momentum: RSI(14) 68 — approaching overbought after a bounce, so not an obviously oversold entry today; a pullback would offer a better technical setup.
- Relative strength (the tell): PYPL −40% 12-mo vs SPY +21% and QQQ +30%; roughly flat over 3-mo while QQQ +22%. Persistent, severe underperformance — technicals do not confirm the value thesis; they flag a falling knife that has only recently stopped falling.
- Read: technicals and fundamentals disagree. The value case is a fundamental call being made against a broken chart. That argues for patience, scaling in, and small size — not a full-conviction entry.
8. Moat & competitive position
PayPal's moat is two-sided network scale + brand + trust at checkout: hundreds of millions of funded consumer accounts and tens of millions of merchants, a brand consumers recognize as safe for online payments, and real switching friction on the merchant side (Braintree integrations). Venmo adds a genuine US social-payments network effect. The "Other VAS" line (interest on balances, credit) is a quiet, sticky, high-margin annuity.
But the moat is under active assault — this is the crux of the bear case:
- Apple Pay (default, hardware-integrated, frictionless on iPhone) and Google Pay at the device layer.
- Shop Pay / Shopify owning checkout for a huge and growing swath of e-commerce merchants.
- Bank and card-network wallets (Zelle for P2P, network tokenization) eroding both branded checkout and Venmo's P2P edge.
- Stablecoins / embedded finance as a longer-tail disruption to the rails themselves.
The competitive frame: PayPal is the incumbent defending a franchise, not an attacker taking share. That is a materially different — and lower-multiple — proposition than a decade ago.
Peer set (FMP-supplied — note the list is mostly banks/insurers, an imperfect comp group): Wells Fargo $262B, HDFC Bank $132B, PNC $100B, Sumitomo Mitsui $95B, Lloyds $88B, Travelers $73B, Manulife $69B, Deutsche Bank $69B, Truist $64B. The true competitive comps — Block/Square, Adyen, Stripe (private), Fiserv, Visa/Mastercard, Apple — are absent from the FMP peer field; treat the bank list as a market-cap reference only, not a real competitive set.
9. Management, capital allocation & guidance
- Leadership: CEO Alex Chriss (ex-Intuit, since Sept 2023) has run an explicit turnaround toward "profitable growth" — repricing low-margin Braintree volume, pushing Venmo monetization, cutting costs, and prioritizing branded-checkout innovation (the "Fastlane" guest-checkout product). The margin and EPS improvement in FY25 is the early evidence this is working. (Note: FMP's stale profile field lists a different CEO name — Chriss is correct as of this writing.)
- Capital allocation: disciplined and shareholder-friendly — ~$6B/yr in buybacks funded entirely by FCF, a newly-initiated small dividend, and a lightly-levered balance sheet. At 8.5× earnings, buying back stock is arguably the highest-return use of cash available, so this is appropriate, not financial engineering for its own sake.
- Insider activity (a genuine positive): CFO/COO Jamie Miller made an open-market purchase of 6,129 shares at $41.53 on 2026-06-15 (a "P-Purchase," not a routine grant/withhold). Discretionary insider buying near multi-year lows is a modestly bullish tell — management putting personal capital in at these prices. The rest of the June filings are routine award/vesting activity.
- Guidance: management is a half-weighted voice by design (they talk their book). Watch the FY guide for transaction-margin-dollar growth (the metric Chriss has anchored on) rather than headline TPV, which is inflated by low-margin Braintree.
10. Catalysts & what to watch
- Next earnings: 2026-07-28 (Q2'26; Street EPS $1.28, revenue ~$8.47B). The key lines: branded-checkout TPV growth and transaction margin dollars (is the profitable core stabilizing?).
- Branded checkout trajectory: any evidence of share stabilization vs Apple Pay/Shop Pay is the single biggest swing factor for the re-rating.
- Venmo monetization: debit-card adoption, "Pay with Venmo" merchant acceptance, revenue per active account.
- Buyback pace: continued ~$6B/yr repurchase = per-share compounding; a slowdown would remove a key support.
- Fastlane / checkout innovation: merchant adoption of PayPal's one-click guest checkout — the offensive product bet.
Thesis tripwires (what would change the call): two-plus quarters of accelerating branded-checkout decline; transaction-margin-dollar growth turning negative; buyback materially slowing; or any sign the "profitable growth" margin gains are one-off rather than structural. Any of these tilts the name from deep-value to value-trap.
11. Key risks
- Secular erosion of branded checkout (structural, the big one): Apple Pay, Shop Pay, and bank wallets taking share of the high-margin core — the exact risk the bearish KB claim (
invest_like_the_best-cmcCyNtRu1M:eff86d0e42) crystallizes. If this accelerates, cheap stays cheap forever. - Value trap: a low multiple that's low for a reason — the market has repeatedly punished false-dawn stabilization calls.
- Mix dilution: growth skewed to low-margin unbranded (Braintree) processing flatters TPV while diluting profitability.
- Beta / drawdown: beta 1.3 and an −86% peak drawdown mean this is not a low-volatility hold; it trades like a broken growth stock.
- Competitive/regulatory: stablecoins and embedded finance as longer-tail rail disruption; interchange/regulatory pressure on payments economics.
- Thin conviction: only 2 KB claims (net-neutral) — no expert breadth backstops the quant call, so the margin of safety must come from price, not panel.
12. Verdict, position sizing & monitoring
Buy — Tactical. PayPal is a cheap, cash-generative incumbent (8.5× EPS, ~14% FCF yield, net-debt/EBITDA 0.33×, ~$6B/yr buyback shrinking the count ~4%/yr) whose price already discounts a lot of bad news — and management's "profitable growth" reset is showing early margin traction, with the CFO buying stock in the open market at $41.53. That is a legitimate deep-value, re-rating setup. But the coverage is thin (2 net-neutral claims), the chart is broken (−40% 12-mo, below the 200-DMA), and the core franchise faces a real secular threat. This is a satellite value bet, not a core compounder.
- Sizing: satellite / value sleeve, ~1–3%. Scale in against a broken chart rather than a single lump; expect volatility (beta 1.3). This is a mean-reversion / re-rating position, not a buy-and-forget compounder.
- Monitoring: re-underwrite on the §10 tripwires; formal re-score each earnings print — the branded-checkout and transaction-margin-dollar lines decide whether this is deep value or value trap. This verdict is logged as a tracked Synthos call as of 2026-07-03 at $45.47.
- Single biggest risk: accelerating erosion of high-margin branded checkout to Apple Pay / Shop Pay / bank wallets — the difference between a re-rating and a value trap.
Provenance & disclosures
- Traceability: 2 KB claims, breadth 1, net conviction ~0 (1 bullish 2022-07-04, 1 bearish 2024-01-17, both Invest Like the Best) — both reconciled to real
claim_ids (cited inline). This is explicitly not a conviction-track name; the verdict is fundamentals/quant-driven. Fabricated conviction is structurally impossible (claim-ID reconciliation). - Data as-of: fundamentals 2026-03-31 (Q1'26) · estimates & prices 2026-07-02/03 · expert claims through 2024-01-17. Forward figures are analyst consensus (FMP), labeled as estimates.
- Data caveats: FMP's profile CEO field is stale (correct CEO is Alex Chriss); the FMP peer list is banks/insurers, not payments comps — treated as market-cap reference only. Large balance-sheet receivables/payables are mostly customer funds held for others, not corporate leverage.
- Not investment advice. Independent research, educational and informational only, never personalized. Hypothetical/forward figures are labeled; the only performance numbers Synthos will headline are the live, real-money Flagship's.
- Version: 2026-07-03. Prior versions available via the deep-dive version dropdown ("based on the info at the time").